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Tuesday, February 07, 2006

China

China and human rights came up in House of Lords questions last Monday. It led me to recall the visit by a Chinese Government delegation who were generally in favour of reform but as always the opposition in China is strong and it comes partly from a fear about instability and a return to Maoist chaos.

It was sometimes difficult to give a clear answer to their questions. One such question was "How do you define working class?" They were struggling with the hard fact that China is not exactly a workers state!

Lord Soley: My Lords, does the Minister take comfort from a visit that was made to this country by a number of senior Chinese government figures about three or four years ago? They asked me whether I was optimistic or pessimistic for the future of China. I said that I was optimistic for the economy, hopeful for the rule of law but worried about the ability to change governments and deal with human rights without difficulty. Their answer to me was commendably honest. They said, "You might be worried, but not as worried as we are".

As the Minister says, the reality is that this country is moving, sometimes in the right direction, sometimes—as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, indicated—very much in the wrong direction . It is our job to try to encourage China down the right route while bringing to its attention the failings that are still manifest.

Lord Triesman: My Lords, my noble friend is right: that is the way in which we have to work. On balance there have been some small indications of the kind of progress that the House would welcome. They are not systematically sustained, but none the less there have been some indications. The work has to be continued by people who believe that there is a worthwhile objective at the end. Everybody could just give up, but that is not the point.

Lord Hylton: My Lords, does the Minister agree that economic giants have a duty to behave themselves

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just as well as anybody else? Can he say what effect persuasion has so far had in preventing abhorrent practices such as forced labour for pregnant women and forced abortions? Is there any improvement on the persecution of a wide range of religious groups in China?

Lord Triesman: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord: it is right to say that major economic powers have obligations. It is one of the characteristics of being a major power that a country should take the full burden of international responsibilities for good practice and improving practice.

In the areas mentioned by the noble Lord, I fear that there has been all too little agreement. That is what I was saying. We will continue to argue such issues as religious freedom, treatment of women, treatment of prisoners and standards in the judiciary. The list is quite long.

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, are any human rights organisations that are independent of the Chinese authorities tolerated in China?

Lord Triesman: My Lords, my noble friend used the word "tolerated". We are aware of some human rights organisations, but the extent to which they are tolerated is a moot point. They flourish, sometimes temporarily. Often, they have flourished so long as they could keep an Internet site going, and that has sometimes been repressed. We have done all that we can to give them the best environment in Internet terms and as regards arguments about access to media. "Tolerated" is not the right word, but such organisations do exist.

Lord Elton: My Lords, the Chinese are in a good position to ignore our moral indignation to the full extent that they wish, but they would not be so free if we expressed opinions in unanimity with a large number of other countries. What collective pressure on human rights is being brought to bear on the Chinese Government?

Lord Triesman: My Lords, everybody who looks at the decision-taking mechanisms in, for example, the United Nations Security Council will be aware that there is seldom unanimity. There is no great commitment even at the General Assembly for everybody to move in the same direction and in the ways that we believe would be right. We are, however, seeing progress in several areas—Africa, incidentally, is one of them. Forgive me for repeating a previous answer, but we have to work continuously with some patience—we do not have much option but to work with patience—to align other countries behind the propositions that I have put to your Lordships' House.

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http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds06/text/60206-03.htm#60206-03_star0