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Friday, February 24, 2006

Ken Livingstone

I was surprised and disappointed about the decision to suspend Ken for one month. I think his behaviour was insensitive but I don't think it merits suspension.

Wednesday, February 22, 2006

Responses

DNA

Potential dictators are more likely to be interested in your NI number then your DNA. I am floating the idea here because I think we ought to consider it. I'm not costing it or going into great detail because it is an idea for the future.

Labour Party history

Andrew, as a Labour Party member it is worth remembering our history. Tony Blair is going to step down. What matters is how we handle this event. It is also a good time to remind ourselves that when Attlee went after the 1951 defeat that government was regarded as a failure. So was Attlee. We were out of office for 13 years and the Party was split into warring factions.

By 1955 Party members were remembering all the good things the Attlee government had done. Something similar happened with Wilson/Callaghan. Don't go there again!

Tony Blair wants to win a fourth term for Labour just as much as any of us. He also wants the public services to be the best possible. Failure to deliver on that puts them at risk of a right wing government saying "You've paid the taxes but it doesn't give you the service you deserve therefore opt for private provision with the state providing a limited safety net". That is the real threat to the Left and to our public services.

Darfur

Ingrid, I'm not optimistic about Darfur but the latest attempt by the US and UK to get a more effective peacekeeping force offers a glimmer of hope.

Abu Hamza.

I think it is possible Abu Hamza will win his appeal. Why? Because the 1861 Act has only been used on one occasion previously to convict someone for calling for attacks on unnamed people. I am told that previous occasion also concerned a Muslim defendant.

I think a law addressing religious hatred is better and although I don't like the world "glorification" for the proposed terrorist offence I'm not sure what the appropriate alternative could be.

If we don't address this problem then the Nick Griffin's of the BNP will continue to get off and the white majority population will be pushed to the right by the extreme end of the Muslim protest groups who are foolish enough to think that a religious war is in their interests!

When Nick Griffin says Britain is like Bosnia he is pushing us in that direction and the demonstrators calling for an Islamic state in Britain are fanning those flames.

Faisal Bodi wrote an interesting article in the Guardian on the 14th February which put the argument well and then went on to draw exactly the wrong conclusion. It is worth reading. See link below.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1709062,00.html#article_continue

Sunday, February 12, 2006

Responses

DNA

Why have a voluntary DNA list? Because those of us who think it would help can sign up and wait for the level of paranoia to drop sufficiently for others to join.

Global Warming

I think it is real but what is less clear is how dire its effects will be. The Independent published a front page of gloom and doom on Saturday but when you read it the effects were all manageable. That doesn't make it good or desirable and I certainly want to treat it very seriously and to take appropriate action. Most of the consequences listed in the Independent were bad but not dire http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article344690.ece

NHS

The NHS and the Government are working on prevention. Examples are smoking, obesity, alcohol abuse and health screening. I am sure there is more that could be done but I really do think that the message is accepted by most health workers and policy makers.

Citizenship

I note the comments and it does seem there are some contradictions in the current situation. If I can find the time I will look at it although I am not aware that it is currently causing significant problems. If you do know of anyone with a specific problem they should write to their MP.

Abu Hamza

To get the exact charges and sentences you would need to check the record at the Old Bailey. My understanding is that he was convicted of 11 out of 15 charges. Six were for soliciting murder and others were for racial hatred.

He is appealing against conviction and although I think it is unlikely it is certainly possible that he could win on technicalities. I haven't read all the evidence but from what little I did hear, he appears to have been inciting hatred but not necessarily racial hatred (Jews are not defined as a race). Maybe it was in the evidence that I didn't see.

Similarly on incitement to murder, he doesn't appear to have called for specific people to be murdered. It is clear he was encouraging acts of terrorism which is why a law on that could be helpful. He was also clearly inciting religious hatred. These are difficult waters as we already know!

By election

Andrew, if you are right about the electorate and Tony Blair why did we win another by election in Scotland just a few months ago? I know you want to believe everyone feels the same about Tony Blair as you do but I would suggest that you divorce yourself from your prejudices before you analyse election results. You can always remarry them afterwards!

 

Friday, February 10, 2006

Baroness Jill Knight introduced the attached debate on freedom of speech. I knew her when she was an MP and only she could get underage sex and teachers being able to cuddle kids into a speech on freedom of speech - her ingenuity knows no bounds!

The link is to my contribution where I failed to mention sex. Sorry!

Lord Soley: My Lords, I also congratulate the noble Baroness on introducing the debate, although I suspect that the agenda might have moved on a little from what she had in mind when she originally tabled the Motion.

I do not share her rather dismal view of the present situation or that of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, not least because freedom of expression flows deep in all types of British veins—we ought to be proud of that—and also because I have seen many arguments over individual issues come and go. The noble Baroness, Lady Knight, will recall that when she was a Member of the then government party in the House of Commons and I was on the Opposition Benches, she strongly defended the banning of Sinn Fein from appearing on any radio or TV station anywhere. That was the first time that we had banned the elected representatives of a political party from appearing in the press.

I remember the miners being summoned and arrested for selling copies of the Miner for precisely the same reason, incidentally, as the lady in Downing Street—because there were rules about getting police permission before doing so. I have reservations about that, but that was done for that reason. I simply say—I shall give way to the noble Baroness, if she wishes me to—that such issues come and go, and we can and do deal with them in both Houses of Parliament. That is not the fundamental problem that is challenging us today. That is what I should like to move on to, but I happily give way.

Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords—

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, were the noble Baroness to intervene now, there would be no time for her to say anything at the end of the debate.

Lord Soley: I thought I was going to get injury time, my Lords.

Religious leaders are leaning over backwards to try to build bridges, but something very important has happened over the past 10 or 15 years. I do not accept the idea of a change of climate so much as a radical shift from a clash between political ideologies—communism on one side, led by China and the USSR, as it was, and on the other western Europe and the United States—to a clash between religious belief systems. These ideologies—they are both forms of ideology to me as a non-religious person—produce an intense belief that people are prepared to fight for and die for. Religious wars are no better than political wars if you get into that ideological struggle. It has been one of my arguments for some time that, when a political ideology declines, a religious ideology often emerges to replace it, and vice versa. There is a lot of evidence for that in various parts of the world at various times.

In the present climate—my noble friend Lord Dubs was right about this—we have to defend freedom of speech very powerfully. That does not mean that you exercise it without thought and consideration for other

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people. I have the freedom to make faces at my neighbour; I do not do it—it would not be sensible to do it. Similarly, if you are going to exercise freedom of speech, you have to ask yourself about the way in which it will impact on the people who may suffer from its consequences.

I was struck by what the noble Lord, Lord Monson, said. He is absolutely right: there were many examples of slight erosions, as they were regarded, of freedom of speech many years ago. That is why I say that it is not new, aside from the ideological clash. In the 1940s particularly, a real problem with freedom of speech was that, if you were from an ethnic minority, you had to suffer abuse—real abuse. The noble Lord talked about being politically correct, but the laws were introduced to protect a minority. Of course, you can define a democracy as the majority will, but if you ignore the rights of the minority, you have a very poor democracy, and I think that that is part of the equation.

If I am right about the clash of religions, it is important that we in the West understand that the argument is largely within Islam. It has to be within Islam. We can talk about what we would like, but in a real sense there is a struggle within Islam, a struggle over modernisation. My strong belief is that the modernisers will win. The vast bulk of Muslim opinion is strongly in favour of freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom of belief, democracy and the rest. If we recognise that, we recognise something important.

The other part of the problem has to do with two events in the past week or so that have made the noble Baroness's debate so important. On one hand, there was the provocation by a group of extremist Islamists carrying placards urging the killing of other people and so on. On the other hand, Nick Griffin of the BNP walked out of court saying that Britain was like Bosnia. Britain will be like Bosnia only if the extremists of that Islamic group or of the BNP actually win. It is our job—our duty—to make sure that they do not.

The police probably did the right thing in not arresting the people carrying placards last week, but I very much hope that they follow this up. There is profound danger if we allow things like that, which provoke the rest of the population and open up the divide on race and religion again. That is what produces real danger for all of us and poses a real danger to freedom of speech, not some of the lesser issues that we can deal with in the normal course of events.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds06/text/60209-24.htm

Dunfermline and West Fife byelection

So the Liberals gave us a trouncing in the by election. Pity. We will have to get this back at the next General Election and I am pretty sure we will.

Although local issues did play a major part in our defeat especially the Forth road bridge tolls there is little doubt that problems within the Labour Party added to our difficulties. It never helps to have internal feuds especially on issues like education. I do think however that the debate within the Party about education has been constructive and largely done with good grace - it still carries an electoral cost sadly!

Wednesday, February 08, 2006

Abu Hamza

The nature and extent of Abu Hamza's activities make depressing reading. I had passed on information given to me in the 1990's by people worried about the Islington Mosque but I was reluctant to call for its closure.

One of the leaders of another Mosque had asked me to tell the Home Secretary it should be closed. They were right but before September 11th calling for the closure of a Mosque seemed like a bad idea especially as I didn't have details of the allegations.

The demonstration in London calling for violence as a response to the cartoons is not as mindless as it might seem. There are people who would love to see a religious or racial war and the BNP referring to Britain being like Bosnia is the other side of the same coin.

The press here has been more thoughtful then its continental partners and the reaction in Britain is still encouraging but don't underestimate the seriousness of this. If we want to maintain our tolerant and diverse society we need a lot of cool heads as well as quiet determination.

Tuesday, February 07, 2006

China

China and human rights came up in House of Lords questions last Monday. It led me to recall the visit by a Chinese Government delegation who were generally in favour of reform but as always the opposition in China is strong and it comes partly from a fear about instability and a return to Maoist chaos.

It was sometimes difficult to give a clear answer to their questions. One such question was "How do you define working class?" They were struggling with the hard fact that China is not exactly a workers state!

Lord Soley: My Lords, does the Minister take comfort from a visit that was made to this country by a number of senior Chinese government figures about three or four years ago? They asked me whether I was optimistic or pessimistic for the future of China. I said that I was optimistic for the economy, hopeful for the rule of law but worried about the ability to change governments and deal with human rights without difficulty. Their answer to me was commendably honest. They said, "You might be worried, but not as worried as we are".

As the Minister says, the reality is that this country is moving, sometimes in the right direction, sometimes—as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, indicated—very much in the wrong direction . It is our job to try to encourage China down the right route while bringing to its attention the failings that are still manifest.

Lord Triesman: My Lords, my noble friend is right: that is the way in which we have to work. On balance there have been some small indications of the kind of progress that the House would welcome. They are not systematically sustained, but none the less there have been some indications. The work has to be continued by people who believe that there is a worthwhile objective at the end. Everybody could just give up, but that is not the point.

Lord Hylton: My Lords, does the Minister agree that economic giants have a duty to behave themselves

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just as well as anybody else? Can he say what effect persuasion has so far had in preventing abhorrent practices such as forced labour for pregnant women and forced abortions? Is there any improvement on the persecution of a wide range of religious groups in China?

Lord Triesman: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord: it is right to say that major economic powers have obligations. It is one of the characteristics of being a major power that a country should take the full burden of international responsibilities for good practice and improving practice.

In the areas mentioned by the noble Lord, I fear that there has been all too little agreement. That is what I was saying. We will continue to argue such issues as religious freedom, treatment of women, treatment of prisoners and standards in the judiciary. The list is quite long.

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, are any human rights organisations that are independent of the Chinese authorities tolerated in China?

Lord Triesman: My Lords, my noble friend used the word "tolerated". We are aware of some human rights organisations, but the extent to which they are tolerated is a moot point. They flourish, sometimes temporarily. Often, they have flourished so long as they could keep an Internet site going, and that has sometimes been repressed. We have done all that we can to give them the best environment in Internet terms and as regards arguments about access to media. "Tolerated" is not the right word, but such organisations do exist.

Lord Elton: My Lords, the Chinese are in a good position to ignore our moral indignation to the full extent that they wish, but they would not be so free if we expressed opinions in unanimity with a large number of other countries. What collective pressure on human rights is being brought to bear on the Chinese Government?

Lord Triesman: My Lords, everybody who looks at the decision-taking mechanisms in, for example, the United Nations Security Council will be aware that there is seldom unanimity. There is no great commitment even at the General Assembly for everybody to move in the same direction and in the ways that we believe would be right. We are, however, seeing progress in several areas—Africa, incidentally, is one of them. Forgive me for repeating a previous answer, but we have to work continuously with some patience—we do not have much option but to work with patience—to align other countries behind the propositions that I have put to your Lordships' House.

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http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds06/text/60206-03.htm#60206-03_star0

Saturday, February 04, 2006

Responses

Citizenship

If one parent has British citizenship then the child can also take citizenship.

Palestine

Fascinating discussion but it's beginning to go round in circles. I think things are changing in the Middle East but it is dangerously volatile.

If we agree that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist in secure borders then our job is to encourage negotiations. If we don't think they have the right to exist then we had better batten down the hatches and prepare for a religious and/or third world war.

DNA

The only arguments I could identify against a data base were either a general one of not giving such information to the state or insurance/health restrictions that might follow.

My reasons for being interested and supportive of a further debate are the deterrence of violent crime, the capture and conviction of rapists/murderers etc and the prevention of wrongful convictions.

In order to discourage paranoia I am quite willing to make it voluntary. I am not going to lose too much sleep if anyone has a bit of my DNA as long as it doesn't come in the form of a hair from my head - I have a serious supply side problem up there!

Cartoons

In view of the reaction to the publication of the cartoons and the acquittal of the BNP supporters I think everyone would do well to take a deep breath and say "tolerance" three times.

I would not have published the cartoons because the present situation is too volatile. It is also clear that some people are very keen on provoking violent reactions. When the BNP says Britain is getting like Bosnia and when some fundamentalists in Britain call for a violent reaction it is time for the rest of the population to say we are proud of our multi cultural society and our history of a free and fair society and we are going to keep it that way. 

Friday, February 03, 2006

British Citizenship debate

This was a good debate on citizenship although we were all a bit squeezed for time and it shows in some of the contributions where points were not developed in the way the speaker would have liked.

I would particularly recommend reading the speeches by Lord Desai and Baroness Howells of St Davids both of whom spoke after me. They show very different personal experiences of arriving in Britain.

Sadly only one Tory spoke and that was their front bench spokesman. If you read his comments you will see that Mr.Cameron needs to do something about the Conservative representation in the Lords!

Lord Soley: My Lords, like all previous speakers, I welcome this important debate. There are a number of things that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said in opening with which I agree. I disagree with some of his comments about respect, which I thought were a bit provocative and missed the very important point that actually respect comes basically from good parenting, and then you build on that. That in a way is what the Government are about but in a much wider agenda.

I agree with him that we have spent too much time in our history lessons on people like Hitler and Stalin, important though they are in teaching people the warnings of history about dictatorship, and far too little on such things as immediately after the war when Britain had a very large hand in drawing up the German constitution, which, in my judgment, is one of the most successful constitutions in the world today, and in drawing up the human rights legislation in Europe, which many people make the mistake of associating with the European Union, even though of course we did not sign it until many years later when the present Government were elected. But perhaps those who do not take such a generous view of British history as I take would say that that is a good example of the British saying, "Don't do as we do, but do as we tell you".

I also agree very much with the noble Lord about the Commonwealth aspect. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, touched on that with the contribution made during the wars generally. It is not well known, but the British/Indian army, which at its height I think numbered more than 2.5 million people, was the largest volunteer army the world has ever known. That in a way says something very special about the nature of the relationship that existed between Britain and India and, in my view, still does.

I think that the Government launching of citizenship education is extremely important. I have felt that for many ears. As an MP I had some research done in my advice surgery. When we asked people who came with council-related problems why they had come to me as an MP rather than go to the council, a very common reply was, "I thought I'd come to the

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top". The assumption was that the MP tells the councillors what to do—that it was a pyramid. If any MP or Member of this place tries to tell councillors what to do, in my experience, it works for a very short time—usually about five minutes. Then it goes badly wrong. It is a mistake. However, a constituent said to me during the past year, shortly before I left the House of Commons: "If you cannot help me with my housing"—I had referred her to a councillor—"what do you do?". That says an awful lot about how we do not involve people in their democracy.

The most important point is that democracy is about participation. The media have a role to play here. If you watch some of our "Question Time"-type programmes, people often respond by saying, "A plague on all your houses". But they leave it there; they do not then go on to say, "What can I do about it?". People have many options. They can not only read the literature from the various candidates, they can put themselves forward as independent candidates; join parties and seek to change them; and so on. We underplay that, so the assumption is that you must be a spectator in democracy, rather than a participant. Democracy, by definition, means involvement and participation.

We should not get too pessimistic, although it is right to be concerned about falling voting levels. There are a number of explanations for that. We need to be careful even about younger voters. If we consider the area that I previously represented in west London, many young people who were not voting were, from the nature of the population—this is true of Britain as a whole—from ethnic minorities, many of whom had come here recently, in many cases from countries that had been through extreme stress. The former Yugoslavia and the Horn of Africa were two classic examples in my area. They did not have a culture of participating in politics, not least because politics was, at best, irrelevant to their background; and, at worst, deeply frightening and worrying because it usually meant violence, sometimes extreme violence directed against them individually.

So we need to go through a process, but we can be proud. I also remember a very good friend of mine, a Palestinian, standing up at his first Labour Party meeting with tears in his eyes. He had just become a British citizen and he said to me, "I am so proud because today, for the first time in my life, I have voted in a free election". He was 47. We need to be very proud of that.

I should declare an interest, because I am chairman of the Mary Seacoal memorial statue appeal. Mary Seacoal was a Crimean War nurse and we seek to establish a statue as a memorial to her—either in Cavendish Square, opposite the Royal College of Nurses, or at the end of Westminster Bridge, outside St Thomas's Hospital. The purpose of that is not just to commemorate Mary Seacoal herself, but what she represents. She represents the enormous involvement of various groups from around the world in being British.

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That is precisely what my noble friend, Lady Young, said so powerfully a few moments ago. My only slight point of difference with her was that she timed her sense of involvement in the British military side of history from Trafalgar. In fact, as she will know, it started long before that. The waves of immigration and the involvement of ethnic minorities in our history are far greater. Indeed, we can see that in the Royal Gallery in the picture of the black sailor on Nelson's ship pointing to the French sniper. About 20 per cent of that ship's complement was foreign-born. At least one captain in Nelson's navy was a black sea captain.

Finally, we sometimes forget that empire was part of the industrial revolution. The industrial revolution was what made Britain the world's first superpower, if you like—the first global power. That is what drove empire, in a way, although I know that you can trace empire back before that through the slave trade, and so on. If we do not understand and teach that, there is a problem. People will say either that the British Empire was the greatest thing ever or that it was the worst thing ever. In fact, there was a much more complicated inter-relationship with what was the dominant power of the 19th century, based on the industrial process. That is the wider sweep of history that will enable people of all ethnic backgrounds to feel a sense of citizenship in Britain today.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds06/text/60202-16.htm